Wait... what?

What should I be voting for?

Wait... what?

Postby MadCat on Sat May 23, 2009 8:48 pm

http://open.salon.com/blog/behind_blue_ ... hout_trial

Okay, I'm officially worried. WTF is up with this? :?:

"Indefinite preventive detention without trial"... doesn't this go against all the protections of the constitution, that our country was founded on?
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby Yino on Sun May 24, 2009 6:14 am

I'm esceptic, I don't believe the "without trial" part of the analysis. First, he's talking about the Guantanamo prisoners, and he's talking about one of the 5 categories of prisoners. He is specifically speaking about the ones that cannot be trialed because evidence is tainted with the use of torture at the interrogations, but that cannot be released because, well they have proven to be dangerous. So the normal trial and the military commisions won't work on them, that's why another entity must do the trial, but it doesn't mean it's "without" trial.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby MadCat on Mon May 25, 2009 11:56 pm

Ahh, okay. That makes me feel a little better, I guess, but still... I'm skeptical of the whole way Guantanamo went down. I think we need a lot more oversight, and a complete overhaul of the system. But I don't think that's likely to happen.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby Zokrah on Tue May 26, 2009 4:08 am

In what way? I'm curious what you mean.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby MadCat on Tue May 26, 2009 7:21 am

My usual disclaimer: I'm not 100% knowledgeable on world events. This is just the opinion I've formed from what I have heard so far from various media sources on television, the newspaper and the internet. I'm open to being corrected on misinterpretations or misinformation. Also, I'm more of a 'feely' person than a 'thinky' person, so I may be more sentimental than logical.

Now, to answer your question:

I dunno, it just feels like a lot of things were deliberately hidden, and when some finally came to light, it got swept under the rug, and a few people involved faced very minimal penalties, while those higher up in the chain of command, who are more responsible, have not seemed to have any repercussions at all. Plus even now the status of many of the prisoners is under debate - where will they go if it closes, are they even guilty of anything, how many are citizens being denied basic civil rights? Plus I heard plans for a new prison (I can't remember the name offhand) where people can be sent without ever being tried or even charged with anything, the same thing just with a different name.

I guess I just wish they'd be less covert about the whole thing, and show us that everything's above-board and that we're not going to be treating people inhumanely. Also, the whole condoning of torture and the "Oh, that's just Enhanced Interrogations" doublespeak needs to stop. I want our country to be kept safe from people who wish us harm, I just want to know that our government isn't being cruel, inhumane and dismissive of human rights to do so. We're supposed to be the "good guys" -- I want us to act like it.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby Zokrah on Wed May 27, 2009 4:13 am

Alright, thank you.

I agree that there is a lot of higher ups not being 'punished' but I think the bigger issue here, is that those who are making the largest out crys, are doing so out of attempts to win public favor and forward their own goals. Like that California Senator who kept saying she wasn't informed, blah blah blah, we were never briefed... and now, OMG, it's HORRIBLE what they're doing! Yeah right. Dumb bitch was contradicting all her statements, yet she's being heralded as a 'watch dog' and good person for going back on all the shit she said and the fact that she WAS briefed and signed off on all the papers? But I digress...

Personally, I say fuck em. Everyone in there, DID do something wrong, and was captured red handed with proof. I frankly don't care what basic human treatment they're being denied. They help people who kill indiscriminatley. They had their chance at life, and now, their biggest mistake was getting caught alive. America isn't ruthless enough to ensure it's survival. We need to stop this closing of Gitmo and that whole bullshit agenda. The information provided is valueable, and it's what's giving us the upper hand. American's as a people are just not ready to accept that war has casualties.

"Bad" things need to be done to ensure victory and survival of your pack. This moral high ground bullshit only lasts as long as people who sit safely in their homes can debate it. The minute that's threatened, it goes right out the door. If someone came into your home, and shot all your family members, was on trial, and then had a support group saying "he was the victim here" or he got pushed around in school, so he's not a bad guy", I'm sure your thoughts of letting him off would change to the opposite. Let's not forget that we are all victims of our emotions... and the media's involvement in this horseshit is simply, to spin a story, and make money.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby Mike on Wed May 27, 2009 4:47 pm

Zokrah wrote:
"Bad" things need to be done to ensure victory and survival of your pack. This moral high ground bullshit only lasts as long as people who sit safely in their homes can debate it.


Strangely enough I can agree with this. I for sure think that we need to take human rights into account but this whole thing of politicians platforming under the rallying cry of "more disclosure for the people!" really is BS. If everything had to get pushed through the bureaucracy of impossible to please politicians nothing would ever get done.

I think torture should be a last resort just because it's a way to get info, but not reliable info. If time is a factor and we can't properly interrogate somebody... and lives slash security (REAL security, not fear mongering) are on the line... you gotta do what you gotta do.


I really think the Bush administration did a number on the public's trust of the government. 8 years of fear mongering, misinformation, and misdirection takes it's toll on all of us. I understand that each of those has a time and place.. but this was a constant bombardment. The people aren't stupid (at least those of us in blue states, i.e., states that matter, hehe.). I believe the public would condone a lot of rule-bending to protect the country... but when everything in the last 8 years was "a matter of national security" when we know most of it wasn't.... that trust is just gone.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby Yino on Wed May 27, 2009 7:29 pm

Zokrah wrote:Personally, I say fuck em. Everyone in there, DID do something wrong, and was captured red handed with proof. I frankly don't care what basic human treatment they're being denied. They help people who kill indiscriminatley....
..."Bad" things need to be done to ensure victory and survival of your pack. This moral high ground bullshit only lasts as long as people who sit safely in their homes can debate it. The minute that's threatened, it goes right out the door.


Actually, is not that hard to get jailed in Guantanamo. Remember that Guantanamo worked outside of the legal jurisdiction. It means anyone who was a suspect of supporting terrorism could go into Guantanamo, just supporting the other political party could get you in there.
And although "bad" things might be needed in extreme cases I think Guantanamo is just too much. One thing is if you shoot the mugger who threatens your family, and another completely different thing is raping him.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby David Yun on Wed May 27, 2009 8:45 pm

What I find ironic is that none of this is new. Between Echelon and "rendering" of suspected foreign agents that dates back to the Cold War, our national agencies have been wiretapping and holding prisoners without legal cause for ages.

President Bush went ahead and tried to justify these powers as a matter of law, which opened the floodgates for scrutiny and examination, and the sort of discourse that we're having here.
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Re: Wait... what?

Postby Mike on Wed May 27, 2009 9:55 pm

Yeah, the Cold War was ripe with hushed executions slash leaving motherfuckers to the wolves after they do what we wanted.
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