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Re: Wait... what?

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:35 am
by Zokrah
They couldn't cause that even if they tired. Not enough Nukes in their arsenal. That'd take US vs Russia vs China to cause. Hell, Volcanos have a better chance (and do) effect the earth's environment than a war caused by man.

Also, your little animated gif about nuclear winter, is merely displaying the distribution of smoke world wide. It will be most concentrated here, here and here, etc. It's not saying "oh shit we're dead and black means lethal radiation and mutants raining down upon us." It's saying how the smoke would distribute and be moved around the globe. I'd expect something similar to happen with another volcanic eruption.

Re: Wait... what?

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:15 am
by Yino
Zokrah wrote:The stress positions? Do you know what stress positions are? Stress positions are usually forcing someone to be uncomfortable. It can range from doing wall sits, to doing push ups until you can't move. All really, are psychological in the end. To impose a sense of control from the interrogators position. If you believe they are in power, you are more willing to bend to their wills and desires for information. If they make your life hell by doing wall sits (pretend you're on a chair without actually sitting on one *they suck SO bad*) and reward you by letting you stop doing that for a day by giving up some info, you're more inclined to give up info again. It's all a mind fuck. Same as water boarding. Mind fuck, mind fuck, mind fuck. Seems you guys are caught up on the wording, rather than the acts.
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No, I got what you meant by it Yino. I was commenting on a part of your statement rather than trying to contest the comment as a whole. I agree completely. But then it also boils down to your definition of torture and rape. What defines torture? Physical damage or otherwise? Interrogations ARE rape. They're raping your mind for information. And I see the waterboarding as a psychological rape, rather than a physical one. Sure, they're tricking you that you're drowning, but no damage is caused. I am in support of waterboarding because I feel the ends justify the means.

I think psychological damage can be torture. Remember the objective of torture is to obtain answers, if there's no psychological damage, you are doing it wrong. Let me put some examples of torture methods that don't cause physical damage.
-Drowning you for short periods of time.
-Small electrical shocks, if they are small enough there's no physical damage.
-Making somebody get naked and masturbate in front of somebody of the opposite sex.
-Making a dog try to rape you. If there's no penetration there's no physical damage and even if there's penetration the physical damage can still be discussed.
As you see it gets nasty pretty quickly. The dog case is real, it happened here in Chile during the military dictatorship.
Oh, and interrogation is just asking questions, there's no need for a brain rapping.
Zokrah wrote:I'd like to caveat the threatens and actually kills your 'family'. If someone sucessfully helped or actually did kill your fellow community members since most of you might not fully understand the 'family' concept of military to military members, (not attacking you guys, I mean literally expierence it since you're not in) you might take a different stance on where the 'line' is to get information to help protect yourself and your family for the next day. Hence why I'm more, I guess leaniant is the right word (?) in what is acceptable in these cases.

You know, that's usually the reasoning behind terrorist attacks. A missile killed your family and now you feel with the right to place some bombs in an embassy, the more people die the better (Hey they killed my family, MY FAMILY). Feeling with the right to do something is not the same as having the right to do something, so please let's not consider the feeling vengeful reason a valid one.
Zokrah wrote:Also, here's a tip about this whole water boarding thing and interrogation. If you think your life is in danger, yeah you might say anything to get yourself out of it, but if you realize that it's a 'routine' after a while, and it's like your daily water boarding... are you seriously going to actually feel each and every time your life is really in danger? Give humans SOME semblance of inteligence...

Remember these guys have passed through sleep deprivation and stress positions, as you said, their minds are fucked before being interrogated, so you cannot ask for a semblance of intelligence when you are focusing on how much does your body hurt while you are trying to don't fall asleep while they are trying to drown you.

Zokrah wrote:No no no, I didn't think you were. I was speaking as a generality. Sorry for the confusion. As for Sami, I actually support and believe the reasons he's being held. With out charges? I wasn't aware that being a POW required charges. POW aren't granted rights for trails. If you are offered them, and you accept, you're a fool. You'll lose and then it's the end.

Military's legal jurisdiction is outside of the legal jurisdiction, they have totally different rules. Perhaps I'm biased, but I don't consider a military legal jurisdiction a valid legal jurisdiction, much less in times of war.


Ah well this is the root of the discussion on that point. "Perhaps I'm biased, but I don't consider a military legal jurisdiction a valid legal jurisdiction, much less in times of war".

Ok, then I'll extend it a little further. In time of war military usually works under the philosophy of shoot first ask later. When they don't have charges on somebody, they invent them for being able to trial them. If they are innocent (ie passed the whole torture process without "confessing" any crime) they invent other charges and it goes on and on. As you can see in times of paranoia this gets pretty ugly.
Zokrah wrote:Ah see, also this boils down to whether or not you trust your government to know more and be right on this issue. Goes back to the whole "they're always going to know more than you can percieve" thing. But then again, Chile doesn't have a big hand in the global war on terror does it?

Actually, Chile is part of UNO Security Council and for 2003 we were asked to vote on the Iraq war topic. The whole country got into the topic, the ammount of info available was amazing. The people got quickly movilized and in the end Chile voted No. I think the world is not big enough for things to be out of somebody's scope. I think media and Internet plays a big role in this, your country with 20 times more population than mine should have more eyes looking. I think the interest of people in the national affairs could be the difference.
Zokrah wrote:I'm not entirely sure where we Americans got this idea that we're morally superior to everyone in the world, let alone need to take the high road on everything. Talk about arrogance. You know the countries that don't deal with these problems often do? They fuck their enemies SO hard, that everyone else goes "oh shit, let's not fuck with them." Look at the Russia/Georgia thing. OMG. Russia just flexed it's muscles and the whole Previous USSR area went "oh god, maybe we should lean more towards the return to Soviet Russia. The US is helping us, but they can't throw down when Russia rolls out on us. That'd be war." And that's why Russia is pushing their influence on those countries that want to join NATO. "If you keep trying to join the 'captalist pigs' we'll fuck you like we did Georgia." The US made it's most outspoken objectors quiet down when we crushed Saddam... The Chonger didn't say shit, and surely wasn't happy when he was put on the black list. But now with Obama and the bullshit American sentiment of "let's all be friends", he's launched missiles, tested nukes, and where as holding hands gotten us? The high road won't last long when your enemy doesn't care whether or not you sympathesize with them or their captured people. They're out for blood. Apparently, we're not.

I agree Russia did it's quite bit of Maquiavelo in there "Strike once, strike hard". I'm not supporting the attack, but he really knew how to do it. And Kim Jong-il has been annoying for quite a long time. It's not just a recent Obama thing.
In fact the whole world supports the "Let´s all be friends" philosophy, there are a lot of hopes put in your president. Particularly because Bush really managed to fuck up your foreign relationships.
Zokrah wrote:I'm with India on this. Fuck em. I say the world court 'unleashes' India and lets them take it over. More power to em. Just like Israel and Iran. Sooner rather than later, the US's hold on Israel won't keep and they're going to roll out and fuck up their neighbors and everyone will be surprised how well they can do it. But what will the public opinion be then? Take the high road, don't decend to the jews level? Wouldn't surprise me if that's what the 'American opinion' became.

When Israel attacked the Gaza strip near the third part of the casualties were kids (I don't recall the exact number). I don't feel like unleashing them.
Zokrah wrote:People's continnual condemnation of the government and the military never ceases to amaze me. I think the last time people really were in support of the American military was in World War II. But of course, now people are contesting whether or not we were right in that war even. The embargo on the Japanese? Use of Nukes? Did we really need to kill so many Germans? Why didn't we do more for the French? Just can't do anything right it seems. And really, at what point do you finally accept, that the military does what it's designed to do. Let's boil it down to basics. The military kills threats to it's herd. We're not here to hold hands and make the world a touchy feely place. We kill people and destroy. Peace through power. What did people think the military's real job was?

Although I agree on the military purpose thing and with your herd analogy, let me put the problem with another analogy: You don't cut the weed with a scythe when cleaning your lawn.

On other note, this posts are really getting sorta lengthy so many quotes. It takes a lot of time to write them. There are new posts here.